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Q: You have made a number of comments to the media reflecting your unhappiness with the pace of change in Bermuda. In its seventh year in power, and with the release of the much-hyped "social agenda" having created little stir, what should the PLP Government do to better serve its base?

A: First of all, I don't think there's much new in the social agenda. But, more importantly, we need to look at economic empowerment, so that people are no longer a social burden on the state, or as reliant.

The 'social agenda', in terms of moving people forward and making sure that there is access to social services, help for seniors, financial assistance, and housing, that was already in place. What we must guard against is creating a mind-set that Government is always going to be there for people, so that some people won't look for a job because they can count on Government, and they can spend all of their money because Government will look after them, or give them housing.

That's why I believe in economic empowerment, so that people are taught what it means to , to be self-reliant, because if we are not careful, we will create a generation who have no concept of the struggle that you have to make to achieve in life.

The island has become successful in terms of international business, but in terms of direct benefit to our mass support, it is questionable whether that success has filtered down, and people have been given the opportunity to buy into that dream of ownership in Bermuda, not just of houses, but also businesses, greater ownership of the economy.

There has to be a change in the mind-set of people, so that they're not just looking to get a job, and this is an area where I think the Government, in its seventh year in power, must move much more expeditiously.

This 'social agenda' is something that has always been a part of the PLP's agenda, in Government and in Opposition. Most of the social changes were made as a result of the PLP's efforts, but what the party has not done is move forward with a stronger economic agenda.

Q: Because the PLP was in opposition for so many years, do you think that unrealistic expectations were built up in the minds of many of the base supporters that a PLP Government would herald a 'brand-new day', and miraculous changes would be seen?

A: Yes, most definitely, I think that lot of people did have high expectations, even perhaps false expectations of what the Government could do for them. But then, most people did and do have very real expectations of what the Government should do for them.

That it should be the voice and set the pace, and that while there has been some success with the social agenda, it has tended to shy away from an economic programme, and it was left to individual ministries to develop economic empowerment as mainstream policy. But it wasn't the mainstream policy of the Government and, quite frankly, there's no reason why it should not be. There are people who think that Government is not moving as quickly as it could.

Q: There has been a lot of talk in recent weeks about 'haves' and 'have-nots'. Premier Scott suggested that the 'have-nots' could have more without the 'haves' having less, but Derrick Burgess stated fairly bluntly that there would have to be a real measure of redistribution of wealth. What can or should Government do to move the 'have-nots' ahead faster?

A: Well, there are two things can happen. The only way it is handled in other jurisdictions is by progressive income tax, that's the way governments world-wide get from the 'haves' to give to the 'have-nots' and to fund programmes for them, and that's probably the most equitable way to do it. But neither this Government nor the former UBP one believe in progressive income tax, whether it's fair or not. Well, I don't know how you do it. We can expand the economic pie, to the benefit of all, which is the view that I take. It is a slow change, but it has to be done. People have to know that at least there is a path they can follow, and that they know what the vision is, and where Government would like to take them, and how they're going to get there.

Clearly, income tax has been eliminated from the picture here, so we have to expand the economic pie, and ensure that there is a system in place that props up and supports people and ensures that there are opportunities, and a certain group, a certain class, who have been disadvantaged in the past can take advantage of these new opportunities.

I don't believe in reparations, in the sense that you take money from someone in Tucker's Town and give it to someone down Middletown. That doesn't serve any purpose, because the guy in Middletown might not know how to deal with it. That's why economic empowerment for individuals is a very important if long-term process.

There are three ways of helping the disadvantaged: introduce income tax, do reparations where you take from Joe to give to Sam, or you look at expanding the economic pie.

Q: From the polls that have been taken, a majority of Bermudians do not appear to favour Independence. What's your own view of Independence, should Government pursue it, and do you favour a decision by election or referendum?

A: People don't like change, and the more conservative they are, the less likely they are to embrace change, and Bermudians are one of the most conservative peoples on the planet, except when we get out of here, and we can be some of the wildest people on the planet! Exactly. But people have not really been educated on Independence. The school system has never talked about it at all, and for those of us who supported it, it was always an emotional issue. Now, in 2004, we look at the reality of the situation, and it doesn't matter so much right now if Bermuda goes Independent.

Aside from the fact that all of the decisions are made on home turf, and we don't need to get the Governor's assent on anything, there is less to be gained than we thought there was in the '60s or '70s.

Bermuda is internally self-governing, and has much more control than any other dependent territories, so in that sense, we are having our cake and eating it too, particularly that they gave us all British passports.

Now we can think of working in any of the 25 countries in the EU, go to university, get a house, live there, something people only dreamt of back in the day.

In spite of that, I do support Independence, but I recognise that the benefits to Bermuda are not as great as they were in the past. We have a stable economy and political system, and if we maintain them, we will stand in good stead.

We are all inter-dependent globally, and that will not change, and we are part of a global state and economy. We like to think of ourselves as isolated here, a special people in a special place out in the mid-Atlantic, the reality is that we are just a little speck in the scheme of things.

So, Government should be educating people, there should be a whole public relations campaign and television ads, a lot of things going on before Independence comes.

The time is there to do it. And if the Government is pursuing it, and the Premier seems to be pursuing it, make sure there's a PR programme and education programme in place.

The PLP has always supported it being an election issue, that has never changed. It would spell out what Independence would mean to the people. If there is a referendum, and the majority approved, what would they be buying into?

Q: Let's turn to tourism. Dr. Brown appears to be moving away from your focus on expanding the market from our gateway cities. Do you think that change of strategy is a mistake?

A: Because we focused on the gateway cities, people out marketing followed that plan, and for the first time they were on quotas, and were expected to deliver. That involved a lot of direct marketing to travel agents, trade shows, and lots of one-on-one sales efforts.

Now, they are going directly to the consumer, and eliminating the role of the travel agent. It's true that many more people are booking online, but there is still a significant part played by the travel agents, and we should be cognisant of that.

We focused the staff and efforts on the gateway cities, because there are 85 million people in the US within a two-hour flight of Bermuda, and we only need to get 500,000 of them. We knew it was a waste of time and money to go all over Europe looking for new markets, because we had the statistics to prove it. We had an office in Germany and an agency, which we footed the bill for, and in one year we only got 2,000 visitors from Germany and Italy combined. They had to change planes, and go from Heathrow to Gatwick, and that's a real problem.

Q: There has been a lot of discussion about a Front Street 'makeover', and plans from Sir John Swan and the Corporation of Hamilton. Dr. Brown and Sir John travelled to Monte Carlo and Villefranche, and seem to want to recreate that sort of physical look and cultural ambiance in Hamilton. We can change the physical plant, but is it realistic to expect that conservative Bermudians will embrace the more hedonistic lifestyle of the C?te d'Azur to attract tourists?

A: No way, I go to the south of France every summer, and there is no way you can replicate that in Bermuda. People here just won't accept it. It's a different mind-set. You are talking about a sense of personal freedom, women going topless if they feel like it.

How are you going to translate that outlook to Bermuda? It's just won't happen. As a society, we still have issues about ending discrimination based on sexual orientation. Do you think people are ready for topless?

Q: You made a call for the PLP to try to attract more white members. Is that a general idea, or do you have some specific ideas to achieve that?

A: What I was basically saying was that although people understand that they have an opportunity to join either party and get involved politically, both in terms of 'working in the trenches' as a member, or even being an elected MP, because of the fact that, historically, we are built on colonialism and racism, all of those -isms, that discourages whites from joining black organisations.

There has been no need for whites to join black organisations, because of the whole structure here ? it's a systemic problem. It can't be addressed superficially, it has to be approached in a real way: concrete, empirical, researched, analysed.

A programme should be put in place that the country embraces, and moves forward. In 2004, it's unconscionable that we are still talking in terms of race. But we have no choice but to face it ? we are not a homogenous, 'colourless' society. It would be great if we didn't have to view everything through the prism of race. I have lived in societies where you barely knew or noticed the colour of someone's skin. In Bermuda, it's always topical, always apparent, because we are based on race. Economic discrimination has been practised for years, and we have made no effort to change that, or barely to talk about it.

Q: Can I change focus here, and ask you to talk about your own family background, your roots, and some of your experiences before you became a public figure?

A: My family is from Hamilton Parish and St. George's. My mother was Bermudian, of black and native American roots, my father was Italian but his mother was British. So I'm of mixed race.

I attended primary school at Francis Patton, then Berkeley Institute, Bermuda College, and university in Canada. I earned a bachelor's degree in political studies and economics at Queen's, a master's degree in international affairs at Schiller International University in Paris, and a PhD in the humanities at the Sorbonne, the University of Paris. I also studied international humanitarian law at the Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

I lived in Paris for nine years, while I worked in the human rights department at UNESCO (the United Nations Educational, Scientific & Cultural Organisation). I helped craft the human rights legislation here in Bermuda, because I was at UNESCO at the time, in 1980-1981, and I was brought back to Bermuda and worked on it with Dr. Dan Hill, who based it on the Canadian model primarily.

I worked for a Saudi group for a number of years in Paris, in charge of VIP services, jetted all over the world, spent a lot of time in the Middle East. I came back to Bermuda in 1989, with a view to getting into politics. I thought it important that we move to the next level in terms of democracy, changing Government, and empowering people, and all of that.

My background is basically labour, working class, so I saw the PLP as a natural fit. My mother was a strong PLP supporter, but my father, Eugene Turini, was pro-UBP and worked actively for them. He worked at the Bank of Bermuda for years, and just passed away last year. He was from St. George's. There was only one Turini family here, started by my ancestor Antonio Domenico Turini, who came here from Italy at the age of 19 in 1855. He came here on a boat with Captain Fred Virtue, and the ship's log is in the Library.

On my father's side, all of my family in Bermuda is white, with the exception of my immediate siblings and one of my father's brothers, who also married a black woman. There is a large group of descendants ? I am related to Kempes, Friths, Pantrys. I didn't realise how many relatives I had on that side until I did my family tree.

Q: You resigned your ministries on a point of principle. You appear to be saying things as you see them, without regard for how some of them may sound to some colleagues. Is that because you decided that some things had to be said and that you would be the one to say them? What about your political ambitions?

A: Basically, it's just a part of who I am. I always call it as I see it, even in the Cabinet. I did become more and more frustrated, because my agenda, which is one of economic empowerment, wasn't on the table.

For me, that was the difference, the reason I joined the PLP and not the UBP. I could have joined the UBP a long time ago if I thought that our people would be in power under them. I never thought they would be, so the PLP was a natural fit for me.

But the agenda hasn't been carried out, so it has been very frustrating. And nothing that I am saying is new to anybody ? I said it in Parliament, in the Parliamentary group, and in Cabinet, but I didn't feel I was getting anywhere, so my political ambition is to assist in changing my country.

I have no ambitions to be leader of the country, that's not my objective. My agenda has always been to help move the party and the country forward, and whatever that has led to, so be it. I am in my 12th year as a Member of Parliament, for God's sake!

How long do you have to wait to get your actual agenda on the table? Now that I am on the backbench, I will continue to call it as I see it. I am no longer stifled by being a member of Cabinet. Clearly, I couldn't sit in Cabinet and do it, I had to resign. Some people may be offended, but I don't think of myself as disloyal. My first loyalty is to my country.

Q: Have you been accused by colleagues or party members of disloyalty?

A: Not to my face. On the contrary, people have been very supportive, in Cabinet, in the Parliamentary group, on the street. People have said to me that what I am saying has to be said. It just has to be said.

There's nothing that I am saying that I did not say when we were the Opposition, and in Government. Perhaps not as forcefully when I was in Cabinet. Then you are part of a group that practises a collective form of government. Even if you disagree with what is said in the room, when you go out of the room, you have to support it or keep quiet! I was very good at keeping quiet if I didn't support a particular view, but now that I am out of Cabinet, I can say whatever I want to say.

My thinking hasn't changed in any way, shape or form, not since I was in university. It is clear what needs to be done, it's clear what the issues are in Bermuda, and most of us know it. Hard decisions have to be made though, and if you are not willing to make them, you should move on.

I think that the UBP is trying to move, but people don't trust it. I go back to what I said about politics being based on race in Bermuda ? as long as they have a white leader and a white deputy leader, forget it!

The first thing they should do is change the name, there is too much stigma attached to it. The UBP in the Bahamas had to do it before they got in power. No matter how many black people they put in there, the UBP is still equated with a white establishment that kept black people back. That is how it is viewed by most black people.

Q: Does that not suggest that an able, enthusiastic white Bermudian could never aspire to be a leader of any political party in Bermuda?

A: If you are seen as a white, liberal, perhaps from a middle-class background, then possibly, but a white conservative from Tucker's Town, then I don't think so. (Dr. Grant Gibbons) is a nice person, but that's not the issue, it's a matter of perception, and if Bermuda is built on race, and we accept that, unless you address it, people are still going to have the same perception ? the PLP is a black party, and the UBP a white party. A Bermuda that is a much more open society, in terms of how we view the world and each other. But unless we deal with the past, we are not going to be able to go forward in a much more open fashion.

My daughter has the privilege of going elsewhere, I make sure that she spends summers in Europe, and she goes to camps and gets exposed to other places and cultures. It's very important, because otherwise you have a very closed view of the world, and worry more about having Nike shoes and how you look, rather than what is inside.

Bermuda must become a much more intellectually open society. When I first got elected, I thought, 'What have I done'? And even then, the level of debate was much better than it is now. It has deteriorated constantly to where it is now, so that it's more like cat fight's across the floor.

Q: Is that because of greater partisanship, or are you suggesting that people of intellectual substance are not attracted to politics?

A: The latter, basically. (Laughs.) In a nutshell. If you look at the amount of work involved, and all the grief you get! I gave up two ministries, and when I took one of them on, I saved the Government $65,000 because someone died, and I didn't get paid one more dollar. In the scheme of things, compared to what I had to go through and do, giving up the ministries cost me $2,400 a month. It's just not worth it. What's the incentive for anyone to do that? It was a major sacrifice. I am part-owner of a couple of companies, and sit on their boards. I play golf, go boating in the summer. I never had time for any of that, and I have literally discovered Bermuda. I now walk about and go in shops I didn't know were there! I was incredibly busy, '24/7'.

I really liked what I did, I loved the challenge of every area of my portfolios. People may have had a problem with me, but I never had a problem with any of my issues or the people. I was just getting my job done, and holding people accountable. Perhaps ruffling some feathers, but that's what happens when you are about change.

But it is a sacrifice to get involved in politics in Bermuda, and it has deteriorated over the years. Now, you go up there (to Parliament) every week, and there are endless interpolations and insults, and very little intellectual debate, very little substance. That's the reality.