Continuation of Monday's debate Shadow Tourism Minister Mr. David Allen made reference on Monday to countries that had gone independent without the general election route the PLP was proposing. He would "shudder to think'' the same civil unrest that happened in Zanzibar in the 1960s could happen here.

There must be a solid foundation for Independence -- not a blank cheque, he said.

Referring to the importing from Britain of the new Police commissioner and his assistant, he said, "Here we are talking about Independence and here we have the ultimate exercise in neo-colonialism.'' To Government, Independence was the "salvation of the Premier's political fortunes, or misfortunes'', he charged.

Sir John saw the party was losing touch with young people and decided to make a "desperate roll of the dice in an attempt to lure younger, black voters''.

But no Government "who brings in an English Police Commissioner in 1995 wants Independence for Bermuda'', he declared.

Mr. Allen said there could not have been a worse time to bring up Independence again -- in the midst of education reforms, escalating violence, social breakdown and the base closures.

Why not bring it up in the 1980s when the economy was booming and race relations were better?, he asked.

Tourism Minister the Hon. CV (Jim) Woolridge, saying he was going to be "realistic -- not emotional'', urged diligent consideration of the issue before Bermuda "embarks down a slippery tunnel of no return''.

"And I have to ask, Independence from what?,'' Mr. Woolridge said. He noted the whole world was in the process of coming together and the UK after 100 years of independence was now finding it necessary to join the common market.

Furthermore, the timing was "off''.

In the middle of boos from the other side, Mr. Woolridge said it was his right to give his honest opinion on the issue. "I stand here because I have four grandchildren I hope will benefit by growing up in the same type of environment I did.'' The comment triggered louder boos and a scolding that he should be "ashamed of himself'' for wanting discrimination and other social ills of the 1930s-1950s.

Mr. Woolridge said Bermudians had made it "quite clear'' to him they were not in favour of Independence at this time with all the violence, social division, employment problems and racial problems that exist today. "Yet we are going headlong into a situation that will compound the problems of Bermuda.'' He added "the jury's still out on the cost of the US base closure''. The Island also had to worry about running a first-class airport once the US left.

Mr. Woolridge said, "I am not prepared to take a risk until I am satisfied we have come to terms with these things. I am not a gambler. I am responsible to the people who voted for me.'' The Minister said he found the $2 million Green Paper figure for Independence hard to believe. At a conference in 1975 he was told by a Jamaican ambassador in Geneva that the cost of maintaining his offices was $4.6 million and he was "yet to reply'' to the question of what the taxpayer got in return.

He called arguments Independence was needed to bring the Island together "nonsense''.

Another reason he was against the issue was, "I fought an election and there was no mention of Independence in the manifesto.'' People who voted for him must feel "deceived'', he said.

Mr. Woolridge said he wanted to wait to see if Bermuda could benefit once Hong Kong reverts to China in 1997.

Going back to the question of "Independence from what?'', he said the Governor made no decisions without consulting with certain Government Ministers and was only responsible for foreign affairs, defence and international security.

Continuing, he said there was "no overwhelming demand'' for Independence from Bermudians.

"And it is my understanding, from reliable sources, that a lot of large homes have suddenly been put on the market. In know of 11...When that happens it indicates a flight of capital from the country.'' "I am not prepared to gamble with the future of this Country..,'' he said.

"We need to build the Country back to what it was in the 1980s. Get more people back to work and instil a sense of pride in Bermudians. That pride will not come from switching flags and having another constitution.'' Mr. Reginald Burrows (PLP) said he realised sooner or later Independence "will come to Bermuda''. But if the PLP wanted it, he preferred a date and deadline be set and worked towards so Bermudians were given ample opportunity to acquaint themselves with what independence was all about.

He said since the US and British base closures, Bermuda was basically fending for itself so it was probably "appropriate and sensible for us to try to be an Independent country''.

However, it seemed all people wanted to talk about now was drugs, violence, education reforms and the bases takeover. There were "very pressing items that we should try to resolve before jumping into Independence''.

He added, "I would hope that when we consider Independence we should consider those persons in Bermuda who either have status or have been long term residents who have made valuable contributions.'' There were many born Bermudians who had lived abroad for many years and had made little contribution to the development of Bermuda but as born Bermudians "had all the rights of persons who had struggled and lived in Bermuda all their lives'', he pointed out.

Unlike Mr. Woolridge, he said he hoped his grandchildren would grown up in a better more racially harmonious Bermuda than he did. "I would not like them to go through the tortures and humiliations I did,'' he said.

But he agreed with Mr. Woolridge Bermuda and the Government had to be united on Independence.

He said there should have been items in the Green Paper that told of some things "more anti-Independence than pro''. "I think the problem with this is the people who drafted the paper were pro-Independence.'' Management and Technology Minister the Hon. Grant Gibbons said he wanted to make some constructive observations on the Green Paper concerning international business and fears it would be harmed if Bermuda went Independent.

International businesses would make a risk assessment on investing in Bermuda as they would for any other investment.

And that assessment would be based largely on past performance -- how has the Government performed in the past? It would also look at other models. Dr. Gibbons said there was a "mixed bag'' of results from other small countries who had gone independent.

Some had done very well: Singapore, Botswana, Thailand, Indonesia to name a few. Others had done poorly, including Jamaica and Uganda.

Success did not depend on race or size, he said, but the economic policies and social stability individual Governments were expected to bring.

"Much depends on the policies after Independence,'' he said.

Using Hong Kong as an example, he said there had been a flight of business -- much to Bermuda -- due to fears about the Chinese style of Government, which had been often arbitrary and consistently tainted by such things as corruption and its legal system.

The UBP was a "known entity with a consistent track record'', he argued. The PLP on the other hand had no track record so companies had to go on comments about the party and its stated policies.

And now they were appearing to "cast themselves as victims of UBP policy''.

Blaming others for their image did nothing to allay fears of a change of Government, he said.

Dr. Gibbons said he did not believe that thus far there had been loss of business and income -- confidence -- due to talk of Independence.

In fact, latest figures showed the rate of company incorporations in Bermuda had increased.

"As long as things stay the same -- stable economy, good management, maintaining our judicial system and internal security -- I don't think we have a lot to worry about,'' he said.

Some Bermudians simply did not want to be part of a colonial system any longer, and he could sympathise with them, he said.

Although it has not become an issue, he said he would prefer not having the "irritation'' of having to go back and forth to the British to okay his bases takeover plans.

Mr. Stanley Morton (PLP) opened his speech by saying, "I am not afraid of Independence. I think it is long overdue.'' But he said the Green Paper should be followed by a White Paper clearly setting out each party's policies on the issue.

The numbers in the Green Paper concerning the cost of Independence, he felt, needed "a little refining''. "But it's high time we look at the numbers and the advantages we'll have as a nation and maximise the returns that would be achieved...

"We in Bermuda have to consider what's best for us.'' Mr. Tim Smith (UBP) said he did not intend to be critical but hoped to get clarification on a some issues in the Green Paper. He questioned whether there were options for some sort of beneficial intermediate status other than full Independence. What about a Bermudian Governor?, he asked.

He believed it was inaccurate to say Bermuda was going from being dependent to independent. Rather, it would go from being a self-governing state to "an exclusive self-governing state'', he said.

Another question he wanted to pose, was: "In the event of civil disorder, would a Bermuda Regiment soldier shoot to kill? Would he shoot another Bermudian?'' Mr. Smith said he had served in the Regiment and had doubts any member would fire at a fellow Bermudian.

Shadow Health and Social Services Minister Mr. Nelson Bascome also chastised Mr. Woolridge for his comments about wanting his grandchildren to grow up in the Bermuda of his day.

"In terms of years I am much (Mr. Woolridge's junior)...but I remember the stories my parents told of segregation..,'' he said.

Returning to Mr. Smith's internal security point, he said it would be interesting to see if there would be "mutiny'' or defiance of orders by Regiment soldiers in the even of civil unrest.

On the issue of the proposed Referendum, he said, "Moving towards Independence in the "R'' way does limit the franchise...My fright at this time is the Bermudian people are being turned off by Independence because of the way it is being used as a political tool. People should feel good about Independence. But what is happening right now is people are being turned away.'' Mr. Bascome said pride in one's country was an important consideration in the Independence debate.

There was no doubt, however, Bermuda was a people of have and have nots with differing views on Independence, said Mr. Bascome.

If a survey was taken, the people first in the polling booths to vote for Independence would be those who had suffered from segregation.

On the other hand, people first in the queue against Independence would be those who held the Country's purse strings.

Mr. Bascome said the British were the undoubted "masters of colonial'' rule who twisted the minds of individuals.

Independence was needed to slay the monster of colonialism, but some individuals still felt trapped by it.

"We haven't broken the mode today. We are still caught up in a colonial mentality.'' Even in 1995, the United Bermuda Party had fallen into the colonial way of thinking, said Mr. Bascome.

"Your are definitely confused people,'' he added, saying education was needed to eradicate the colonial mentality.

Mr. Bascome said the way ahead was to put Independence in a party's manifesto, and then hold a general election.

That way Bermuda could be emancipated.

Mr. David Dodwell (UBP), MP for Southampton West, took issue with Mr. Bascome for criticising the UBP for being confused.

He said he made no apologies for the UBP's strong and divergent views on Independence. In the final analysis, it was for Bermudians to decide their own destiny.

"I don't think it is wrong or unhealthy to do that.'' Mr. Dodwell also defended the make-up of the committee which produced the Green Paper on Independence. It was healthy to have people with opposing views compiling the report.

"I don't see this report as being a final report. I think it should be viewed as a discussion paper.'' He added: "We are at the beginning of the process. We have got to recognise this is the beginning, and we are amplifying the process by this discussion.'' Mr. Dodwell said he believed a White Paper would be another part of the process.

At this point, Opposition Progressive Labour Party MPs shouted out: "What is the date for this White Paper?'' Mr. Dodwell continued by stressing educating people about Independence was paramount. "The last time the subject was raised was in 1977 and 1979. We have a whole new generation which has got to be educated.'' Unfortunately, said Mr. Dodwell, some members of the community did not know how to ask for information. "In some ways it's a little bit of a fear of the unknown.'' Mr. Dodwell said Bermudians were asking for more information on Independence.

And a way needed to be found to disseminate the information effectively, perhaps in the form of "questions and answers'' in the newspapers.

The Green Paper was a weighty document, which used long words, and not everybody had read it.

Mr. Dodwell said he had read it several times, and was still trying to absorb it.

He was not "a rocket scientist'', he admitted, but imagined other people probably would take a similar amount of time to digest the report.

"We need to get the information out there, and we need to do so with speed.

People have got to have simple down-to-earth facts.'' On tourism, Mr. Dodwell said there was little doubt many visitors liked the British atmosphere of Bermuda.

They liked the monarchy and many things associated with Britain.

But Independence did not necessarily mean such British trappings would disappear. Bermuda could retain its heritage. "We can have change without these things changing.'' Mr. Dodwell highlighted the importance of recognising the needs of those directly involved in tourism, such as tour operators and travel agents.

"They are the people we need to focus on. They will instil confidence in our tourism.'' MPs agree international business thrives on stability From Page 4 Turning to international business, Mr. Dodwell said he assumed organisations like the Chamber of Commerce and the Bermuda International Business Association had made presentations to the committee preparing the Green Paper.

He understood an updated report relating to the international business sector had just been received.

Mr. Dodwell suggested the report's contents should be divulged.

There was no doubt, he said, international business thrived on a country's stability.

"We have to eliminate uncertainty. We are certainly capable of doing that.'' In summary, Mr. Dodwell said education to Independence was the key. "We have got to pledge ourselves to continue that education process. People will tell us what direction to go. All we have to do, I say all but it's not easy, is to manage that decision.'' The Opposition's Special Assistant for Management and Technology Mr. Walter Lister said the PLP's position on Independence had been unchanged for over 30 years.

Its commitment to Independence today was just as strong as it was in 1963.

Some people, said Mr. Lister, always argued now was not the right time for Independence.

"I ask `when is the right time?''' Mr. Lister said colonialism inhibited the growth of the people of a country, and it was high time Bermudians took responsibility for themselves. He said the Constitution needed looking at.

"What we want is a new Constitution whereby we move to Independence...We feel with a new Constitution we should have a new Government. One follows the other.'' Mr. Lister said since 1966 there had been a few adjustments to the Constitution.

For example, Members of the Colonial Parliament (MCPs) became Members of Parliament (MPs).

Premier the Hon. Sir John Swan provoked a burst of laughter by cutting in: "Male Chauvinist Pigs! That's what MCPs stood for!'' Mr. Lister said he objected to the Constitutional change, because until Bermuda was Independent MPs were still really MCPs.

"As long as we remain a colony everyone of us is an MCP.'' Mr. Lister said it was "utter foolishness'' in 1995 for Britain still to hold control of another country from 3,000 miles away.

It was this kind of control which had led to the recent controversy over the hiring of two British officers to fill the top posts of the Bermuda Police Service.

Mr. Lister believed Independence would have a unifying effect on Bermuda. "We have to be either Independent, or not. There is no half-way house. In this respect I agree with the British position.'' Focusing on tourism, Mr. Lister said he was sceptical about claims that visitors came to Bermuda to sample the British atmosphere.

He believed they came here because of the friendliness of Bermudians, and to "relax and enjoy'' themselves.

Mr. Lister said there was a feeling among Bermudians that the Premier had "ambushed'' them by springing Independence on them, when there had been no mention of it in the UBP's Blueprint. "I think there is a lot of validity in that.'' People should also be very wary about the type of Independence Sir John would provide, said Mr. Lister.

Sir John was asking people to vote in a "plebiscite'' without telling them what would happen afterwards. "Just to give Government a blank cheque is not on.'' Mr. Rick Spurling (UBP), MP for St. George's South, did not believe the Green Paper was complete in all respects. "A lot more information needs to be provided.'' He added: "I understand Government intends bringing forward a White Paper.'' Mr. Spurling said Government would be taking a stance on certain issues, but not on the overall question of Independence.

For those who were emotionally drawn towards Independence, Mr. Spurling said he had some sympathy. "I feel the same way, although perhaps not as strongly.'' It was understandable for anybody to want to take control of his own destiny.

"The issue of national pride is important as well.'' Mr. Spurling said he accepted young black Bermudians did not have any affinity with the United Kingdom. And he himself did not feel he was English.

But Mr. Spurling said he knew of older black Bermudians who did have an affinity with Britain because of the Second World War.

"They appreciated what England did for the world in fighting for fundamental rights of people, and fighting for freedom against a racist Nazi regime.'' Mr. Spurling agreed that colonialism was a "negative experience'' for many indigenous people, who were disadvantaged. But this was not the case in Bermuda, since there were no indigenous people here. The first people on the Island were English. Nevertheless, the UK Government has exercised very little influence on Bermuda's affairs over the years.

There was rarely a disagreement, said Mr. Spurling, between Bermuda's Government and the Queen's representative, the Governor.

The recent hiring of the British Police officers was a decision by Government in consultation with the Public Service Commission, said Mr. Spurling.

He pointed out many of the anti-British comments related to slavery. But, he stressed, slavery was abolished by the UK in the 1830s.

In this regard Britain was well ahead of the United States.

Mr. Spurling, however, said there was not much to be gained by dwelling on history. There was no doubt, he continued, that a lot of Bermudians lacked self-esteem and experienced feelings of inferiority.

Every effort should be made to combat this through education, but Independence was not the cure.

Mr. Spurling said many of the benefits of Independence were psychological.

Some argued it would improve a sense of national identity, and help the fight against crime and drugs.

"Maybe there is some truth to that, but Independence is not going to be the panacea. It will not create Utopia.'' There was another perceived advantage of Independence -- Bermuda would take certain "reserve'' powers, such as defence and control of international affairs.

But, said Mr. Spurling, he was interested to find out that Britain already delegated powers to Bermuda. It was important not to rush into Independence.

Mr. Spurling said some people wondered why Bermuda should change when it already enjoyed the benefits of British influence.

The international business sector, for instance, perceived the Governor as an independent reviewer of public appointments. And the judicial system was viewed by both Opposition and Government MPs as worth preserving as it was.

Mr. Spurling said defence was not a terribly relevant issue, although an Independent Bermuda would have to develop treaties with the US, Canada or Britain.

As regards external affairs, Mr. Spurling wondered how much influence an Independent Bermuda would have as a member of the United Nations.

"Independence is similar to a mirage. Every change is more a symbolic step than anything else. I am concerned that if we achieve Independence it will be a considerable let down with certain negative experiences. There will be fewer benefits than anticipated.'' Mr. Spurling said he wanted to know what new opportunities Independence would bring for the international business sector. He added he knew of companies which had contingency plans to move financial assets out of Bermuda.

And he understood the International Companies Division was holding back on expansion plans pending the outcome of the Independent issue.

Mr. Spurling understood many exempted companies were adopting a "wait and see'' position.

They would be very sensitive to what Government decided, and the slightest mistake could have a "domino effect''.

Mr. Spurling said his greatest fear was that international businesses would not take time to investigate the effects of Independence.

"They will say let us look at alternative jurisdictions.'' And these jurisdictions would be only too happy to exploit Bermuda's predicament, warned Mr. Spurling.

Mr. Spurling said UK territories tended to flourish, but their economic health deteriorated once they cut ties with Britain. The Bahamas was an example. And Barbados, which could have been very competitive, had failed to achieve very much.

Mr. Spurling said some companies would simply not take the risk of Independence.

Mr. Spurling asked: "What can we do to minimise the loss of international business?'' Another problem with Independence was that it was distracting Bermuda from managing its emergence from the recession, and the need to focus on education.

The US Bases issue had to be dealt with, and a thorough investigation of the cost of Independence carried out, said Mr. Spurling.

"I feel we are moving too fast down this road.'' He added: "I feel Independence promises more than it can deliver. When the party is over there will be an even harsher reality. Don't forget it is an irrevocable decision.'' Shadow Community Affairs Minister Mr. Leon (Jimmy) Williams said Mr. Spurling had started out in a "good tone'', but his presentation changed once he touched on international business. It was at this juncture Mr. Spurling resorted to "bogeyman'' tactics to scare people away from Independence.

Mr. Williams said he was also saddened by a remark made by Tourism Minister the Hon. C.V. (Jim) Woolridge .

Mr. Woolridge had said: "I stand here because I have four grandchildren I hope will benefit by growing up in the same type of environment I did.'' This was a "shameful'' statement, said Mr. Williams, because Mr. Woolridge had grown up in a segregated Bermuda.

Mr. Williams went on to chide the UBP for not containing one word of Independence in its Blueprint.

This contrasted with the PLP, whose 1993 manifesto repeated the party's pro-Independence stance, albeit on the last page.

Mr. Williams said the PLP had not made Independence a central election issue in 1993 because it was not a high priority among voters.

PLP canvassing had shown education topped the list of concerns, followed by such subjects as crime and the US base closures.

Independence was still not at the forefront of people's minds.

This was shown by the small number of people in the public gallery in the House of Assembly, and the lack of response recently to a Shirley Dill talk show.

Mr. Williams said any talk on Independence must include a look at the past.

"We must know from whence we came to know where we are going.'' Mr. Williams said the first settlers came to Bermuda in 1609, and in 1612 people came to colonise the Island. In 1616 the blacks arrived to build the Country.

August 1, 1834, saw the emancipation of slaves throughout the British Empire, said Mr. Williams.

Some 3,000 "souls'' were set free in Bermuda, who founded their own lodges and clubs and set about educating themselves.

In the 1800s the blacks, who were magnificent ship builders, refused to work on farms and in homes, and the Portuguese were brought in.

Mr. Williams said there were now three groups on the Island -- Africans, British and Portuguese.

"When we talk about Independence we need to involve all the people.'' He added, personally, he had no problem with British pomp and pageantry.

"Yes, the British have made a significant contribution to this Country. We have a rich heritage.'' Mr. Williams said there were many white Bermudians, however, who felt "rail-roaded'' by the UBP's approach to Independence. And they were justified in their feelings.

The UBP Government had not felt the pulse of Bermudians on the issue, he said.

Mr. Williams said public forums on Independence had attracted just 18 people in Somerset, and 22 in St. George's.

"When the PLP has a public meeting, it is a public meeting,'' he declared to cheers from the Opposition benches. "We want Bermudian people to be totally involved.'' Mr. Williams tabled a document by the group, Concerned Bermudians, which reported that the Premier allegedly wanted Independence so he could take personal control of such bodies as the Police force.

Sir John immediately dismissed the document, and asked for a copy of it.

Dr. David Dyer (UBP), MP for Pembroke West, said the UBP Government had positions on tourism, education and international business. And so why hadn't it staked out its position on such an important issue as Independence? "To have this Green Paper and not follow it up with a detailed and precise indication of what Government's position is, is going to leave members of the public a little unclear.'' Was the Green Paper produced because Government was unable to garner sufficient votes to deal with the "ism of which we cannot speak'', asked Mr.

Dyer referring to the referendum. Or was it a genuine bid to seek the views of the public? Dr. Dyer said MPs would have had a more meaningful and fulsome debate had Government made its position clear.

"There is confusion among the public. Many have asked why it was so necessary to bring to the fore the issue at this time.'' Dr. Dyer said Independence was a taboo subject prior to the October 1993 general election.

But Sir John raised it, saying it was time to revisit the subject because of the British decision to leave HMS Malabar.

"I thought we may have been better in coming out with a Green Paper at that time,'' said Dr. Dyer.

Sir John, however, also gave a different explanation for his decision to start the Independence ball rolling, Dr. Dyer continued.

This time Sir John said it was for social reasons.

All of which, contended Dr. Dyer, had given rise to justifiable confusion and concern among the public.

There was a perception among people that Independence was already having an effect on them, such as in the property market.

Said Dr. Dyer: "There has to be a loss of confidence within the local economy, since we still haven't resolved this question.'' Dr. Dyer said the UBP Government had to take the flak for some of the "financial difficulties''.

"Blame should be placed where it justly deserves to be placed.'' He added: "I would say the average Bermudian is confused and the message currently coming out of Government needs some clarity.'' Dr. Dyer said different statements and positions were coming from the UBP side. And a lot of these statements on Independence were not being made to Bermudians, but to international assemblies or small groups of people not involved in the day to day running of Bermuda.

"I think it's time at least for people to be honest and come clean and say what is the position.'' Dr. Dyer continued: "I think the people of Bermuda demand and deserve no less than to know what the Government of Bermuda's position is. We have to be at least somewhat more honest and open to the Bermuda public.''