morning but not without cracks appearing in the ranks of the Cabinet.

Senior Ministers the Hon. C.V. (Jim) Woolridge and the Hon. Clarence Terceira and former Minister Ann Cartwright Decouto spoke against the Independence Referendum Act.

But after 17 hours of debate, only Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto withdrew her support by abstaining in the vote that passed the measure 20 to 18.

The following report begins with continuation of Finance Minister the Hon.

David Saul's comments, the first part of which was in yesterday's edition.

* * * What difference did it make if the Country was taken to Independence via election or referendum?, Dr. Saul asked. "The same group of people will vote.'' But in the course Government was proposing, the facts would be set out objectively, without emotion, by a neutral Commission of Inquiry made up of "seven wise heads''.

Dr. Saul said he agreed with the PLP's point that Independence should be `a people thing'. "I agree we should not take the people kicking and screaming one way or the other -- we should ask them,'' he said, adding, "What we are trying to do in 1994 is move forward -- not backward.'' Dr. Ewart Brown (PLP) disagreed with Dr. Saul that Independence should not be viewed with emotion. That was an "unreasonable expectation'', he said.

Government's case for Independence was "weakened by a lack of preparation'', he said.

"The people are seeing weakness on the inside and the outside,'' he charged.

"The first message people are getting from this Government on Independence is it is wrecking it inside.'' Dr. Brown said Government had made Bermudians believe they "need a Canadian expert to open the door of the House of Assembly if it gets stuck''.

"There is something in the air that makes me suspect whether this Government is serious about Independence,'' he said.

"They don't appear to have a lot of vigour about it...they just don't appear to be strong about it.'' He was made to wonder whether the moves towards Independence were a "scam'' or a "trick''.

"I wonder if from the feedback from inside and outside we are seeing the Government go from advocating Independence to bringing up Independence,'' Dr.

Brown surmised. "It could be that after 31 years of being unsuccessful at the polls a PLP government is expected to win an election -- and if we go to a referendum and the people say they don't want it (Independence), and in 1997 or earlier an election takes place and the people have said no, that same group (those who believe the PLP could win the next election) can say we don't have a mandate to take the Country to Independence!'' Mrs. Ann Cartwright DeCouto fully maintained her position, already stated publicly, that the bill was premature. It was a "recipe for disaster'', she said.

Remarking that she was speaking from the back bench for the first time in many years as a result of her Cabinet resignation over Independence, she said: "I have the freedom to speak from the heart...'' "I don't believe this is the time for this Country to be engaging in such an emotive issue. It will produce a volatility in this Country that will have serious economic ramifications. Everybody knows the most nervous commodity in this is money.'' It was in a year Bermudians were looking towards better economic times and pulling right out of recession.

To examine Independence now, she said, would cause businesses to put any expansion plans on hold, homeowners to forget building projects and international companies to cross Bermuda off their lists as a place to domicile.

It was no secret Dr. Saul planned to eventually remove all exchange controls, she said. The Premier himself had said they would one day be "stripped away''.

That move, coupled with the Independence issue, would cause money to go out of Bermuda "like dishwater down a sink''.

She said: "I am dead set against a Commission of Inquiry and a referendum. It is a recipe for disaster.

"I have got to say I have not heard one argument that makes any sense to me about why we are doing this at this time.'' Furthermore, she noted, a Commission of Inquiry could not examine the potential benefits for Bermuda of exploring an education agreement for Bermudians with Great Britain after Hong Kong is given back in 1997.

"If we are going to have a referendum and ask `yes' or `no', we are embarking on a course from which there is no turning back.

"And I am not keen on getting in a boat and getting offshore and having a hell of a squall come through and not being able to have the option of rowing back to shore. There is no turning back!'' Education Minister the Hon. Clarence Terceira , commenting that "in the UBP process of Government there was room for disagreement'', said he felt it was "idiocy'' to at this time be going in the direction proposed.

But he also disagreed with the PLP's proposed course of a general election.

"It did not make sense,'' he said.

He added that Government's having decided on the inquiry and referendum course, made him "anxious to get on with it''.

"And when the actual result of the referendum comes in, I have no doubt it will be a resounding no!,'' Dr. Terceira said.

From his understanding of what Independence had cost the islands to the south, he believed it would end up costing Bermuda double -- even triple its original estimate.

Mr. Stanley Morton (PLP demanded: "What is the fear of us going independent?'' "Why not aspire for the pride other independent territories enjoy? Why not take it a step further and give the people a feeling they can run and manage their own Country?'' He said his ten years in the international business industry had convinced him overseas company heads had confidence in Bermuda and Bermudians ability to get on with each other no matter what.

The Government should realise that the Opposition was equally interested in Bermuda's success, Mr. Morton said.

There was always fear of change, and the charge that international businesses would leave if Independence was explored was "a bogeyman''.

"There is too much money invested in this Country and there is still money being invested,'' Mr. Morton said. "Where are these people going to run?'' Health and Social Services Minister the Hon. Quinton Edness agreed with Mr.

Morton that scare tactics were being used in the Independence debate.

People in the international business community had said Independence was not a threat to them, Mr. Edness said.

They only wanted stability, and knew that both the Government and the Opposition had the interests of the Country and Bermudians at heart, he said.

Also, "we're not exploring this matter because we have a particular dislike for the Mother Country or the citizens of the Mother Country,'' Mr. Edness said. "This is not a matter for beating or bashing the English over the head.'' The Minister said he was "something of an Anglophile'' and respected the Parliamentary tradition Bermuda inherited from England.

"We have obviously suffered unfairness,'' he said. "Slavery is a blight that we will never get rid of.'' What would be undertaken was an honest exploration of the Country's constitutional position, and the Government owed it to the people, whether the issue was raised during the election or not.

Bermuda was big enough and able to manage its own affairs, said Mr. Edness, adding he had long personally favoured Independence for Bermuda.

He only wished his United Bermuda Party colleagues could be united on the Independence issue, and that the UBP and Opposition could have moved forward together on the issue.

Shadow Finance Minister Mr. Eugene Cox said Parliament was supposed to be supreme, but the Commission of Inquiry would be a "delegating of power to someone outside of this chamber''.

To ask the Governor to appoint a commission would almost be like "appealing from Caesar to Caesar,'' he added.

Government could have had a Green Paper or Select Committee on the issue.

"Why do we need to set up a commission on the issue that is going to confuse people and perhaps waste the public's money?'' Some MPs felt "Independence is an ego trip'', Mr. Cox said.

But democracy and a colonial system were incompatible.

It was wrong to look at what happened when some African and Caribbean states went Independent. Westerners judged those countries by their own standards, forgetting the fact it took decades for their own democracies to progress.

Government Whip Mr. John Barritt said there were different views on Independence within the UBP. While some saw that as a weakness, "it's also our strength'', he said.

Mr. Barritt said he was neither for nor against Independence, but open minded on the question.

"It means you're confused,'' Mr. Ottiwell Simmons (PLP) interjected. "I am prepared to do what is in this Country's best interests,'' Mr. Barritt said.

A Commission of Inquiry got the issue off Government's plate and allowed everyone to have input. It also took fact finding out of the hands of politicians.

And a referendum gave every vote equal value, which is what the Opposition Leader said he wanted.

Shadow Tourism Minister Mr. David Allen said as a teenager he visited many African countries that were becoming Independent and he appreciated both the advantages and the pitfalls.

The PLP mentioned Independence in its recent election platform, but the UBP had not, he said.

The Opposition had often accused the UBP of "politics by ambush''.

"Now we're having Independence referendum by ambush. Is the Country being hijacked now? Very possibly.'' There was no reason to trust the UBP, which had maintained the plus vote until 1968 and formalised the Commonwealth residency vote.

He noted that ten years ago the PLP supported the granting of a bank charter to the Hon. Sir John Swan , even when some of the "old white guard'' in the UBP voted no.

"What did he turn around and do?'' Mr. Allen asked. "He sold that charter.

He sold the Queen's signature.. .and made a fair bit of money out of it. In seven figures, I understand.'' Mr. Allen asked why the PLP should trust the UBP on Independence.

The UBP did not believe in a participatory democracy, and its record was poor, he said.

Mr. Allen attacked Dr. Saul for describing Bermuda as a "self-governing colony''.

This was a contradiction in terms. No colony was self-governing.

Tourism Minister the Hon. C.V. (Jim) Woolridge said Bermuda had never faced a more important issue during his 26 years in politics.

Neither Government nor the Opposition made Independence a plank in their October 5 election platforms.

He said many of his constituents in Smith's South -- and those elsewhere -- were concerned about where Government was taking the Country.

Mr. Woolridge said he shared those worries.

"There is a degree of concern. I am looking down the gun of uncertainty.'' He added: "I am concerned for the economic survival of this Country.'' Mr. Woolridge said Bermuda had reaped huge economic dividends from the military Bases.

But these would be going, and Bermuda would have to run its own Airport.

"Hence, I do have to be concerned. I would be very dishonest if I did not express concern.'' Mr. Woolridge said a referendum would not be binding.

"I would say if it is not binding, why have it?'' He added: " I am not in favour of Independence at this time.'' Mr. Woolridge said there was still a lot of economic gloom, and jobs were being lost in America.

Americans made up a large portion of Bermuda's tourism clientele.

Mr. Woolridge said some people stated Independence would restore pride to Bermuda.

But pride was not tied just to a flag or a national anthem.

It was linked to what was "good and wholesome'', and an economy which provided Bermudians with a good lifestyle.

Mr. Woolridge said Independence was a major step for a small Country which offered nothing except sun and pink and white sand.

"We could not support ourselves if we don't have the foreign exchange to purchase goods to keep our people going.

"I am deeply concerned. We must give this more thought. I don't know what the rush is.

"I am not a gambler. I believe in the sure thing.'' He added: "I am opposed to the move we are taking at this particular time. I hope somewhere along the way we will see the light.'' Mr. Woolridge said he was against a simple majority deciding the course of a referendum.

"I would like the Commission of Inquiry to consider a two-thirds majority for us moving on to the next step.'' Shadow Human Affairs Minister Miss Renee Webb said the UBP was at a crossroads.

It was split on Independence.

She said the UBP had traditionally used Independence to scare people away from the PLP.

The UBP claimed Independence was on the Opposition's hidden agenda.

And Independence had even been a "dirty word'' in the past, said Miss Webb.

Miss Webb suspected Sir John had been unable to persuade his caucus to support Independence.

So instead he chose a referendum to get the people on his side.

"My prediction would be that the population will vote `no','' said Miss Webb.

Miss Webb, however, said Independence was inevitable for Bermuda.

She added she believed the UBP knew the British were pulling out of Malabar before October 5.

But Government did not want to raise Independence so close to an election.

"There has been blatant dishonesty on the part of the United Bermuda Party.'' Miss Webb also taunted Government for not having a programme on Independence.

"They just respond to what we are saying.'' She hoped those on the Government side who were against the referendum would "show fortitude and character'' and vote against it.

Mr. Rick Spurling (UBP) said one could be opposed to Independence but still support a referendum.

If the Independence was part of an election platform it would be muddied with other issues and distract the community from such an important issue.

The PLP's real motive in wanting an election was to gain power. A PLP government together with Independence would be a "double whammy'', he charged.

The Rev. Trevor Woolridge (PLP) praised Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto's display of courage in rejecting a referendum and suggested the Premier consider handing the reigns over to her.

It was the PLP's job to force Government to re-submit its changed Blueprint for Bermuda to the people for decision, because there had been no mention previously of Independence among its more than 100 promises.

He said Mr. Spurling had given the clearest indication of what the UBP was really doing. They feared the "double whammy'' of a PLP government and Independence, he said.

Mr. Woolridge chastised the Premier for not taking the advice of three senior party members.

Residents were left wondering whether Sir John had embarked "on an ego trip''.

They woke up one morning and suddenly there was a call for a referendum, he said. The people did not know "what hit them''.

"If the Premier does not listen to the people inside closest to him how can we expect him to listen to the people outside?,'' he asked.

Community Affairs Minister the Hon. Wayne Furbert (UBP) said Government had always been clear on Independence and the referendum Bill was proof: "We will let the people decide.'' Independence was inevitable one day.

Mr. Walter Lister (PLP) said it was not Bermuda's colonial status that led it to develop a booming international business.

It was the hard work of Bermudians and overseas companies would not "just up and leave'' if the Country went independent.

The UBP should stop using "boogy man tactics'', he said.

The Hon. John Stubbs (UBP) said he would vote "with some considerable reluctance'' for the bill.

"It is the strength of our party that we can always accommodate diversity.'' On dual nationality, Dr. Stubbs said it was "arrant nonsense'' to talk about outlawing it.

He added Bermuda should think about fostering a tripartite relationship between the United Kingdom, United States and Canada.

"I would fervently ask us to support it.'' Shadow Transport Minister Mr. Dennis Lister said there had been no mention of Independence in the UBP's Blueprint.

Up until now the UBP had painted Independence in a negative light.

Mr. Lister said Sir John's attempt at Independence -- his second -- was "embarrassing''.

"It is quite clear he has not learned from his failed first attempt.'' Mr. Lister said the UBP had been the "schoolmaster'' for the last 30 years.

But during that time Independence had been a non-issue.

Now all of a sudden it had been plucked "out of the blue'' and put before Bermuda.

Mr. Lister said the UBP's approach was designed to fail.

"Is that their intention?'' Mr. Lister said it was time for the UBP to stand up and tell the Country where it stood on Independence.

Mr. Trevor Moniz (UBP) said personally he neither sought nor feared Independence.

On the Opposition's stance, he said on the one hand the PLP argued people without Bermudian status should not be eligible to vote in a referendum.

Yet on the other, the PLP was calling for Independence to be decided by a general election.

Mr. Moniz said those non-Bermudians made up less than one percent of the electorate.

He added: "In terms of a referendum in my view it would be the most clear-cut method to decide whether to go to Independence.

"I do not think it desirable to go by a general election.'' Mr. Moniz said the issue was not about black and white, or slavery.

"We must look at it in the best interests of the Country.'' He urged people to look dispassionately at the costs of Independence.

Mr. Moniz said those who believed Independence would instill pride in Bermudians by leading to a national anthem, and flying a flag were "sadly mistaken''.

He concluded by saying: "I am for Independence as an individual if I think it is in the best interests of Bermuda.'' Mr. Moniz said he did not want Independence imposed on Bermudians whether they liked it or not -- unlike the Opposition.

Shadow Community and Cultural Affairs Minister Mr. Jimmy Williams said Independence had not been mentioned in the Blueprint.

He agreed with Mrs. Cartwright DeCouto that a referendum would be a "recipe for disaster''.

Mr. Williams understood Mr. Jim Woolridge's worries over Independence.

"Mr. Woolridge should be very concerned when you don't know where your ship is going and when your officers on the ship are jumping off.

"That should make everybody in Bermuda very nervous and very concerned about what is happening on the other side.'' Mr. Williams said the UBP was divided on Independence.

There were a host of matters related to Independence which Government needed to address.

These included Bermudian citizenship, dual citizenship, electoral system, the economy, NAFTA, and the judiciary.

Bermudians wanted to know where Government stood on these issues if the Island went Independent.

Dr. David Dyer (UBP) said the Opposition always argued for one-man-one-vote.

The referendum was just what the PLP was appealing for.

"You can't get more equal than a referendum.'' Dr. Dyer said there was a contradiction in the PLP's position.

The Opposition wanted Independence decided through an election. And yet Bermuda had never voted in a PLP Government.

"Surely the PLP would want Independence should be decided by a referendum.'' He urged the PLP to reevaluate its position.

Opposition whip Mr. Stanley Lowe criticised Government for forcing MPs to discuss the bill on the same day as the Budget.

It was a clear example of Government's mean-spiritedness -- especially on Valentine's Day.

Mr. Lowe attacked the proposed Commission of Inquiry, which he compared to an inquisition.

"I don't think it good to have people appear before the Commission under duress.'' He urged the Government MPs to stop pandering to the ego of its leader Premier the Hon. Sir John Swan.

It was obvious Sir John wanted to have his name indelibly stamped in history.

There were people in the UBP who followed their leader blindly.

Shadow Education Minister Miss Jennifer Smith wanted to know, "What is this deadline Government feels so propelled to meet?'' Government had not even taken steps to ensure one-man-one-vote -- of equal value. The constituencies remained uneven, she said.

Government could go ahead with the Commission of Inquiry without the referendum, she added.

Shadow Minister of Legislative and Delegated Affairs Mrs. Lois Browne Evans said the UBP was afraid to state it believed in Independence.

"You can't sell the Country on Independence if you don't believe in it yourself,'' she told the UBP.

She said that whenever Government had a difficult question before it, it used a referendum to deal with it.

People were "thirsting for information'' on the issue, she said. Government should rather be concentrating its efforts on setting up forums, workshops and conferences to educate the people.

Mrs. Browne Evans urged Bermudians not to be fooled by Government claims the Bill was not a move towards Independence.

"The referendum Bill is a step down the road to Independence whether it be in ten months or two years,'' she said.

"Why not just set up the Commission of Inquiry first and while its members are out gathering information, bring forward the referendum Bill.'' The Premier had been "derailed'' by not openly coming forward with the Independence issue by including it in a party election platform.

Transport Minister the Hon. Maxwell Burgess said the Independence issue should be and was separate from the question of who Bermudians wanted to run their Country.

And he knocked the PLP for urging members and supporters not to take part in the referendum because it did not support it.

"I believe the Bill to be reasonable and fair and in the best interest of the Country,'' he said.

Mr. Reginald Burrows (PLP) wondered: "How much more information can be gathered from a Commission of Inquiry? We have already compiled a green paper and a white paper.'' Mr. Harry Soares (UBP) asked: "Why are the PLP afraid of a referendum? I have great faith in my fellow Bermudians to make the right decision.'' Premier the Hon. Sir John Swan said the public needed to be presented with options.

And these could be provided by the Commission of Inquiry and the referendum.

Just because some countries had selected a different route it did not follow that Government's approach was wrong.

On the PLP's questioning of the timing of the bill, Sir John retorted: "Should it matter when it happens? "What is important is that Government acts.'' Sir John said Government often had to tackle "extenuating circumstances'' -- such as Hurricane Emily.

This meant not all Government's actions would be in the Blueprint.

"These are the times we live in.'' Sir John, however, told MPs that if he transgressed by not putting Independence in the Blueprint he was sorry.

"I can take the lashes on my back, so long as we make progress.'' Occasionally appearing emotional, Sir John went on to rebut Opposition claims that he had done nothing for civil rights.

Civil rights did not always mean a change of laws, he said.

Sir John said scholarships, boosting employment, health care, and the Bermuda College could all come under the heading of civil rights.

And so to could the referendum.

He also accused the Opposition of "hypocrisy'' in its accusations.

What have the PLP achieved for the working classes whom they purport to represent? "I haven't heard a cause they have advanced.'' Sir John believed the distrust of PLP MPs for Government reflected a distrust of themselves.

"It is most amazing how people mirror themselves,'' he added.

Sir John accused the Opposition of resenting Government attempting to do something. He added the PLP lacked true integrity.

"I have come to the conclusion that the level of integrity is not there for the interests of the Country, only for their own interests.'' He appealed to them to withdraw Mr. Wade's motion to save embarrassment.

The House of Assembly then moved into committee, to discuss the bill clause by clause.

Said Mr. Wade: "We are firmly against this procedure because we think it's designed to trick Bermudians into agreeing to Independence without having a say as to the nature and quality of that Independence. We can't support it.'' Mr. Wade said Government had not said how it would proceed after a referendum.

He reminded the UBP of the importance of what was being discussed.

"This is a vital and important step and cannot be treated lightly or whimsically.

"It's a deadly game. We are playing with people's lives.'' Shadow Tourism Minister Mr. David Allen said it was wrong for non-Bermudians to have a vote.

Sir John said the number of foreigners on the register was about 240. He hoped they would not be a deciding factor.

He pointed out the referendum would be decided on a simple majority.

The bill was then put to a named vote.

It was passed 20 votes to 18, with former deputy premier Mrs. Ann Cartwright DeCouto abstaining.

ABSTAINED -- Mrs. Ann Cartwright Decouto withdrew her support by abstaining in the vote that passed the measure 20 to 18. Rev. Trevor Woolridge.