Govenrment's Green Paper on pensions which ran in Saturday's newspaper.

Pension plans are vital for those who find it difficult to save for their twilight years, Deputy Speaker of the House of Assembly Mr. Stanley Lowe (PLP) told MPs on Friday.

Mr. Lowe, speaking on Government's Green Paper on A National Pension scheme, said people often did not save unless they were forced to do so.

Shadow Minister of Works Walter Roberts (PLP) said the Opposition Progressive Labour Party welcomed the idea of everybody having a "unified pension scheme''.

"It's long overdue.'' He hoped an unemployment insurance scheme would follow in the wake of a pension plan.

Mr. Roberts wondered how the casual labourer -- one who moved from job to job on a weekly basis -- would be brought into the pension scheme.

Casual labourers were a growing trend in Bermuda, he said.

"It's going to be difficult to keep track of these particular persons... these are the people who need to get a decent pension.'' Mr. Roberts said there appeared to be a growing number of people falling below the poverty line.

Some people were earning less than they did three or four years ago, he claimed.

"I don't think the scheme will work if it's going to be run on a voluntary basis.'' Mr. Roberts suggested money in the scheme be distributed so that poorer people received a decent pension.

He went on to warn of possible problems because of an ever-increasing number of elderly folk.

"Some pension schemes get into trouble because people are living longer,'' he said. "Persons who reach 65 can now expect to live another 15 to 25 years.'' Bermudians had to be protected, whether they were working for local or international companies.

In the United States, there was the problem of company bosses being prosecuted for misusing pension funds, said Mr. Roberts.

"It is very serious. We must make sure that all of our citizens are protected and will not be affected by a company that bleeds its own workers.'' Mr. Ottiwell Simmons (PLP) voiced concern at the apparent lack of interest shown in the debate by Government MPs.

While Government had brought forward the Green Paper, there was poor UBP participation in the debate.

Mr. Simmons said that in addition to defined contribution and defined benefit schemes, there were other plans, too -- including a superannuation scheme for the Police and teachers.

There were also private plans, such as those at the Bermuda Telephone Company and ones often organised by insurance companies.

In addition, said Mr. Simmons, there were schemes for restaurant and construction workers, and a Hotel Pension Fund, which was run by trustees.

The Hotel Pension Fund was established in 1979 and contained about $40 million.

Mr. Simmons went on to voice concern about the effect of the suggested pension plan on low-income people.

A five percent deduction from a person's salary was a "hefty'' amount for the hard-up.

Sometimes, said Mr. Simmons, non-contributory plans proved "good and cheaper''.

Mr. Simmons asked the Minister whether 65 would be a compulsory retirement age.

And he went on to point out pension schemes were relatively new to Bermuda.

"Government should have education programmes, print pamphlets and information sheets.

"The information should make it clear pensions are an investment for old age.'' Picking up on an idea by Mr. Roberts, Mr. Simmons said money in the proposed fund should be distributed so as to ensure low-income people got a large enough pension.

It was important to ensure the poor, through their contributions to the scheme, did not make the rich richer.

Mr. Simmons continued by attacking Government for not consulting pension experts, such as trustees, about its idea.

This was disrespectful to the working class, he said.

"What social benefit does this plan offer? Will money accumulated benefit workers during their working life or after retirement? Or will employers benefit? Does this scheme have a social conscience?'' Mr. Simmons wondered what regulations were being planned to protect Bermudians who took part in the scheme.

And he asked what the position of self-employed workers like fishermen, taxi drivers and farmers would be under the proposed pensions legislation. He said these occupations did not draw a salary and if they were to take out a pension, they would have to pay in double that of a salaried employer to have an equal pension at the end of their careers.

"Pensions are an investment, not a cost. I am hoping that workers will ultimately see the benefits of this,'' he said.

Technology Minister John Barritt (UBP) said projections showed there would be an ever-increasing number of elderly and retired people over the next few decades.

"It's imperative that when we look at these statistics we make some provision for the future,'' he said. "All of that comes at a price. What we are trying to do is prepare for when the chickens come home to roost.

"We have clearly got to have some forced savings because that is essentially what a pension plan is. Of course, a pension is an investment for the future and any investment comes at a cost.'' Mr. Barritt added that it would be important to make sure that pensions were transferable from one employer to another.

He added: "If we don't provide for this today and we don't set some kind of system up we face problems -- if we don't pay today we may have to pay tomorrow.

"The demands from elderly people who will come to us for assistance means we will have to go back to the people in the form of increased taxes, which is something we would want to avoid.'' Mr. Reginald Burrows (PLP) said that some staff at one company he was associated with had a pension scheme, but that many were reluctant to cut into their salary cheques further.

He added: "A lot of people are still not investing for the future -- one of the big problems we face is that we have an ageing population.'' He added that he knew of some people who had been drawing a pension for 25 years -- almost as long as the state pension had been in existence.

Premier David Saul (UBP) said recent statistics showed half of the Island's 36,000 strong workforce was not in an employer's pension scheme and was relying entirely on the state pension to support them in old age.

He said 25 percent of workers had what would be recognised as a good scheme and another 25 percent were getting some kind of pension, but that it was being taken "straight out of the cash flow of that company''.

Dr. Saul said: "If the company went belly up, to use the vernacular, they would have to come to the Government for assistance.''