Bermuda.

*** Moderator -- Mr. Roy Wright Welcome to you all. I sincerely hope that as we engage in this discussion we will certainly break grounds of sort, but out of this discussion will come a momentum for us to move forward in the issue of race relations and I know that tonight's discussion is really interesting.

I can tell you that at the Bermuda College today a lot of people said to me `Hey, we're going to see you on TV tonight. Hope the discussion will go pretty well.' But I think that my sense of it is that many Bermudians are tuning in tonight's discussion and I want to suggest that we give a good lead as the results of our undertaking tonight.

The issue as you heard is one of race and I did indicate that from my observation people have spoken about the issue of race but interestingly enough they have spoken about the issue of race past each other.

The occasion now presents itself for us to discuss the issue of race openly and honestly together. So, one of the questions which I need to pose to our audience and indeed to our panellists, is: What is the issue of race? What is it about race that is problematic? Of course an argument could be advanced that it is not necessarily race which is problematic, but the relations amongst people. OK, but why is it historically and even contemporarily so problematic? Arlene Brock: I think, one, the issue is that often when we talk about this subject we are grappling with what the problem is, how is it caused, how do we get out of it, and I think that one of the things we don't do well enough is grapple with what would the vision of race unity be.

Up until about nine years ago I used to think that racial accommodation was possible. I used to think that amongst individuals racial harmony might be possible but race unity is a different concept.

So I think that we are grappling not only with the problem, but what is the vision? Where is it that we can move to? Once we can get there, then we can look at the truth of where we are and about the will to get there.

Rolfe Commissiong: I think Arlene hit on something very intensive... As we reflect upon the past, as we contemplate the present and as we project into the future it is very important I think, that we all realise that what we do now is actually creating the world that countless others in the community are going to inherit.

So we have a responsibility to try to get this right, to try to move the processes along. I have said before that this whole question of race and relationship between primarily Anglo-Saxon Bermuda and Black Bermuda is a continuum and set up the struggle of primarily Black Bermudians to achieve full civil rights within society and all that it entails and in most cases for a large part of our history, the resistance of the white Anglo-Saxon community to accommodate that for a variety of reasons.

We are now turning now... in our history as a people together, as this Bermudian family, an estranged family, but nevertheless a Bermudian family and I think it is the ideal time now to again come back to the issue and examine it, do a surgery, if I can borrow a political phrase to the issue.

Charles Gosling: One of the difficulties I think that we face is that white people and black people to a large extent don't trust each other's motives.

That white people to a large extent fear that blacks are not interested in a harmonious diverse society and I suspect, though I am probably not the right person to be asking, that a large number of our percentage of black people fear that whites are not interested in a harmonious diverse society.

So there is that suspicion and doubt about what the end object is.

Ian Kawaley: Definitely, I think that one of the main issues is the historical way in which our society has been ordered.

Bermuda began as a society which was based on slavery and the people who were slaves were predominantly people of African descent. There were, of course, also European indentured servants but, more or less, Bermuda was a society in which those people who had property and privilege were of one race and those who did not were of another.

So we have a very long history of being a divided society, of being historical adversaries and that history is not something that can be discarded or ignored.

It has to be resolved and reworked and we have to create a new sort of national identity. But, I think that the historical roles that we have had as different communities fighting against each other, often quite overtly, is why we have the lack of trust today.

I think we are making some progress. I think we are making some progress, but I think one of the things that we need to try and do is not to think that the problems we face here are unique...

That the problems we have are the only problems of this kind on the face of the planet. In fact, we know that we have issues of racial conflict in many other societies.

Often the conflict takes the form of ethnic conflict amongst people who might be described as being of the same race, and I think as we are approaching nationhood, hopefully, we can look to see how other countries who have become nations recently have failed trying to create a multi-racial society and try to learn from their mistakes or learn from their successes.

But we shouldn't try and reinvent the wheel here in Bermuda.

Chris Valdes-Dapena: That gets to the point that I was talking about earlier, you say as 'we approach nationhood, hopefully', and I know that Independence is clearly one of the issues that is going to be on our political agenda in the next very few years, as we have had constitutional change on the agenda recently, as we had the long-term residence situation on the agenda recently and it comes back to that point that I was making.

We didn't really, in my view, discuss those issues very well because there was so much emotional up-welling coming from the issue of race that sidetracked some of the most essential elements that should have been in those discussions.

It just makes it all the more important that we, as a community, that you and I, and Rolfe, and Cummings and I and we all do what we can; I know it is going to be a difficult and a very long-term struggle, but we have to do something to take that issue and look for that vision that Arlene was talking about, that vision of a race unity I think was the phrase that she used.

Times are changing for Bermuda's white community We've got something right now that is bubbling up and I think it may be a good sign that it is bubbling up more vividly now than it was doing, I think, for a long time. It's bubbling up more vividly now I think because black people are feeling more empowered by the new government. We've got to use that energy, we've got to use it to turn something positive out of this I think.

Llewellyn Simmons: I would like to say that we have only arrived at this point because of the black presence in politics as we see it today. Had we not arrived at this point we would not be here dialoguing about this issue, that is the reality of race.

If we talk about what the problem of race is, the problem has always been the negation, the unwillingness to arrive at this dialogue here. We arrive at this dialogue only today because of the fact that we have, quote unquote, a black government reflected of the majority of the people.

Certainly, if we are to arrive at that race unity that Ms Brock speaks of, we must first deal with the reality and the truth of our present circumstances.

Until we begin to address those truths of our present circumstances, we will never arrive at that racial unity. So, the emotion that we talk about is legitimate emotion. This distrust that we have, the `we, the black community have and white community has of each other', is legitimate distrust largely attributed to the treatment or the mistreatment of one group over another.

So here we are dialoguing about treating each other respectfully, arriving at that point. Until we begin to do that, that is when we will get to the racial unity.

Chris Valdes Dapena: And I think we have to be absolutely frank about the fact that what the white community in Bermuda and the white world in general in the west at least, did to the black community for not just however many hundreds of years of slavery but then another hundred and fifty years after that denying political parity, economic parity through overt forms of discrimination and covert forms, was reprehensible. That was just plain, frankly, flat-out awful and that is the starting point.

Arlene Brock: Yes, it was denying the very humanity and you are absolutely right in that facing the truth in a full frank and honest way is perhaps the key to developing the will to move toward something like racial unity and facing the truth not only means facing what happened in the past, it also means facing the legacy of what the past has created for the current times, one of those legacies being, for example, the whole concept that people are beginning to talk about of white privilege.

I'm going to give you a brief example and then I will be quiet. Some years ago I was in Toronto doing an after-school programme in a black, poor neighbourhood and we were showing the kids a film of the civil rights movement and in the discussion I said that of course you folks are much too young to be able to appreciate what it means to be judged purely because the colour of you skin.

And a seven-year said `Oh no, Ms Brock you are wrong. When I go to the corner store with my girlfriend who is white, they don't follow her around to see if she is going to steal anything, they follow me around.' At seven years old she's not only lost her innocence, she has lost her humanity, she has lost any benefit of the doubt and for the rest of her life, and for the rest of most black people's lives you go through the world without even the benefit of the doubt. When you are working, when you are studying, you are not considered quite good enough.

Charles Gosling: Yes, I just want to say that in Bermuda now there certainly has been, obviously with the election of the new government, a change in the comfort level with both racial groups and that blacks are now feeling a lot more comfortable to say things that previously they may have been reluctant to say and a lot of whites are perceiving some of that to be racist and they do consider some of it to be a beginning of a double standard evolving that a white person will say something which, after great debate, someone might say well that actually is a racist comment, then they will be widely condemned for that.

You might have a black person getting up there and saying something, which is a racist comment and he is held up in front of his peers as being a great role model. I'm exaggerating a bit here but we certainly do see some people making a comment.

I remember one comment about sports clubs made a couple of months ago by a white politician and he was told that he was racist for making those comments.

A couple months later a member of the BFA gets up there and makes exactly the same comments, says that he (white politician) was right and not comment at all about racism there. I think that we really need to be a little more honest and more open with everyone in how we approach each other.

Rolfe Commissiong: You know, I think this is a very important issue because one of the things that tee's me off is when I hear any black person being in this country, being accused of being racist because my view is that there is only one group in Bermuda that historically has practised racism in Bermuda.

Why do I say that? It is based upon what I have, my understanding of what racism is. Now undoubtedly prejudice and discrimination is a form or a part of racism, but racism to me is the ability of a racial group for example to exercise political and economic domination over another group.

And by that standard, there is only one group in Bermuda who have exercised that sort of domination upon a subordinate group, i.e. being black Bermudians.

So what in many cases might be identified as being black racism, which to me has never existed here, in many cases could be a reaction to racism.

Prejudice and power define racist dynamic It doesn't mean that the recipient is going to feel any better because this is not racism, but it is a reaction to racism. I am not saying that, but that is why I feel that it is so important for us to define what racism is.

We need to really do that, not only for ourselves, but I think for the community as well. It doesn't mean to say that blacks don't have the ability to be racist.

For example, let's say that you have a black majority takes over and then they start to impose a racist regime with all the features of racism. You find that whites are not going to get opportunities for jobs; some of this discrimination is qualified under law, for example.

Charles Gosling: So that's a question, or do you have an answer? Racism is a black and white issue. I don't think you can really point at one particular group and say these are the sinners and point at the other group and say that those are the saints.

It's just one group that have been more efficient that were a little more successful than the other one, but I think to say that the one particular group because they have been the underdog for such a long time are racist is a very blanket point of view.

Rolfe Commissiong: A quick response to that. Undoubtedly the blacks have prejudices.

To put it another way that is undoubtedly these groups to actually impose their prejudices on others, that to me really defines to some extent what racism is and all I was saying -- I'm not saying that blacks don't have the potential to be racist or African Bermudians, but if you look at the historical record objectively only one race from Bermuda has practised racism in the country.

Chris Valdes Dapena: I was just really concentrating hard on what was going on here because what I was understanding and then Arlene made it crystal clear in her wrap up was that from I think racism has been understood largely by white people to mean.

Lou put it most clearly when we were talking the other day -- some white folks just don't like black folks and some black folks just don't like white folks and I thought that was racism.

I thought that was a pretty good description of racism in the white community and racism in the black community, but what I'm understanding here is within the black community there has been a need to define racism and to differentiate it from prejudice and that was prejudice that Lou was talking about, and that it goes with you can't be a racist. I'm hearing, unless you can disadvantage the other party, unless you have enough power to cause disadvantage to the other party -- it's a bit like harassment -- you can't be accused of sexual harassment unless in fact you have some power over the person you are said to be harassing and so this is what I am understanding.

Rolfe Commissiong: And I might just add that what you are saying is if this is the way the black community is defined, it has also been a definition gaining credence amongst white academia in terms of universities submitted in western countries as well.

Llewellyn Simmons: To elaborate on Chris' point what is this racism is an ideology rooted in white supremacy and when we put that in the context of power relations between black and white, who has had the power over the (other . If we understand that for what it is and getting to the argument of hearing Charles' argument and hearing Ralph's counterpoint there is only one group who was exerting their power over another based on the colour of skin then that's a white supremist policy.

Now I ask the question again and I asked it when we were previously talking -- are white people racist? Are white people racists? Chris Valdes DaPena: And I think you asked it knowing that most white people would say `no'.

Llewellyn Simmons: Until white people understand that they are the beneficiaries of white supremist policies, we can name the major areas of people activity, there are nine, law, education, religion, there is business, there is entertainment and four others, nine.

There aren't any black people controlling those industries; the power base of that has always been constructed for the white construct around a white supremist policy. You want entrance into that there, you have to buy in to that policy.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't any black people who haven't bought into that policy, at the price of assimilation, accommodation or whatever, but they certainly don't buy into being white.

They buy into it understanding that they're giving up a part of who they are in terms of what they look like because black only is a question of what you look like, it doesn't say much about who you are. Then buying into their white supremist policies says a lot about who you are in relationship to their construct.

Charles Gosling: At the risk of being the bad guy, why is it that successful black people are the ones who have copped out and bought into the (system).

Llewellyn Simmons: I haven't said copped out.

Charles Gosling: Well I know. I'm extending it a little bit. But you seem to say that they bought in to this system...

Llewellyn Simmons: If it is a white supremist policy system and you have bought into it at the expense of who you are, you have bought into it in a culture context as it relates to the black community, understanding that the majority of the black community whether they wanted to buy into their policy or not, cannot.

Now we know those who do buy into their policy have certain economic privileges goes with that policy.

Cummings Zuill: Why are some able to buy in and some not able to buy in to that policy? Llewellyn Simmons: What are you prepared to give up? Chris Valdes-Dapena: But how is it giving up? That's what I don't understand.

Rolfe and I have had knock-down drag- out, over the telephone...

Rolfe Commissiong: I don't remember any of that...(laughter) Chris Valdes-Dapena: ... discussions about the relevance of the point of view of members of the black community who have reached the pinnacle of success within the white corporate structure.

I'm sure that's where Rolfe was coming from had to do with what you just said, that they were buying in to a white supremist construct. But that sets me right back.

It gives me a lot of trouble because then I'm going, so those folks who've done that clearly, for Rolfe, and for you, and I say so because it seems so to me, are not for instance role models of how to redress these economic imbalances that you were talking about earlier.

So then, I'm sitting there going: `OK, but then how? If the root isn't that, what is it?' Ian Kawaley: What I think we're talking about is that everybody has a certain degree of moral choice.

If you are living in system that is unjust and you are a member of a group that is being discriminated against, you have a choice as to whether you are going to challenge that oppressive system or whether you are going to ignore it and prefer to pursue personal advancement.

Racial unity and equality I think it can't be denied that if you look at things from a philosophical point of view, and if you claimed to be passionately opposed to racism and discrimination you cannot look at somebody who has ignored those issues and prefer to advance themselves at the expense of the majority. You can't look at that person as a roll model.

Cummings Zuill: What do you mean `at the expense of the majority?' Who is to say at what expense? Ian Kawaley: Well, I mean let's use let's go outside of Bermuda. Let's look at the Jewish Holocaust; let's look at those Jews who chose to ignore what the Nazis were doing, who basically worked with Hitler and the Nazis, while their relatives were being taken to the ovens. Are those people roll models for Jews everywhere? I don't think so.

Tom Vesey: That's a comparison with a successful black business person.

Ian Kawaley: OK that's an extreme case and I did that for dramatic purposes.

Tom Vesey: It seems to me that we cannot possibly have unity unless we have equality and we can't have equality without economic equality.

I understand some sort of catastrophic revolution how we could ever have economic equality without black people moving into those line areas which Lou mentions which are dominated by whites, and if I understand what Ian and Lou were saying is that the only way that we can get equality is by certain blacks sacrificing themselves, and saying `I'll go and play the white game'.

Is that the only way we're ever going to achieve economic equality, or can people actually move into these white fields, get their piece, and create equality.

Llewellyn Simmons: I'm not only saying that. I think there is more to it than that, and to a wider equality to me you must deal with the truth, right, and if you put this in again, because this is Bermuda, across the table in our political construct, for the first time in our history right, you have quote, unquote, again a black government moving across the table or those who control the economic purse, who once didn't have to deal with them on this level but if we are talking about arriving at equality, you can talk about Bermuda being a model -- we have a great opportunity to be represented in that model understanding for the first time in our history those that control the economic purse have to finally negotiate across the table with those who are the managers of the economics.

Rolfe Commissiong: There is no longer a monopoly of power.

Llewellyn Simmons: So true dialogue has to occur to arrive at this racial unity given the dualism that Bermuda is constructed upon. Our political construct reflects that. So, for the first time in our history it is unavoidable, suffering. It is unavoidable suffering that we have to look across the table and dialogue with each other whether we like or not to make this a better Bermuda whether it is economically, socially, politically or whatever.

And it is only because we have arrived at this historic point politically that again I will re-emphasise for the entire night, that's why we are here. It is that particular social condition, political condition...

Roy Wright: Lew we are going to come back to that point, but I really would like to take up a point which I think Arlene is making... and Cummings concerns and indeed Charles.

It is all a question of humanity. What constitutes humanity? Maybe there is a better way to phrase it. Let's put it another way. Does one humanity have to do with the economic well-being? Arlene Brock: Yes. I think that all the prospects of our lives enter into humanity. May I give one image and then I will be quiet. This comes from the Baha'i faith also.

It is that humanity is like a bird, it really doesn't matter how strong one wing is. If the other wing isn't equally as strong the bird isn't going to fly. So I agree with all of the comments about the necessity for justice, equality and so forth in order for that bird to soar.

Chris Valdes-Dapena: I want to pursue what both Lew and Tom were saying because I have the same perplexity... CURE for instance. What has moved from being a voluntary thing for businesses to follow, to be in legislation under the current government. It was done to ensure either there was equality of opportunity between the races in Bermuda, or that there began to be equality of opportunity between the races in Bermuda in the employment sector.

So we are going to send these forms in and they are going to be analysed. And the black people, what CURE wants to see, if not this year then two years, five years from now is that in those upper tiers of jobs within all of the business sectors of Bermuda and salaries and benefits within all of the business sectors of Bermuda there is a fair representation of black people.

But on the other hand I keep thinking that I am hearing you telling me that the black people who move into those jobs and who attain those salaries and those benefits are doing so at the sacrifice of something important to themselves.

Ian Kawaley: No. I think what we were trying to talk about was the sort of dilemma of how to progress as a black person in a white-dominated society and sometimes, historically certainly, changing very dramatically now I think.

Historically a black person wanting to succeed in business had to appear to ignore the racial injustices that existed in Bermuda to be accepted and to be perceived as acceptable and somebody with whom whites would do business.

That was a problem. That is problematic because not many people would have the strength of character, you could say, some would say the moral ambivalence to ignore the social injustices and put their head down and just focus on getting ahead for themselves.

That was a very difficult thing to do and that marginalised a lot of people who were not willing to enter into the hostile work environment to be the only black person in a white place of business.

One of the things, I think, very quickly that gives me great hope that things can change is the recent sale by Ward Young of his BGA shares, because historically you would not expect to see a black businessman like Wendell Brown being given the opportunity to buy into a business like that.

In giving Wendell Brown a legitimate business opportunity, it wasn't a gift, it wasn't patronage -- that to me achieved far more in the Bermudian psyche than a hundred pieces of legislation.

Tom Vesey: Absolutely, and I must say I'm a little disappointed that you were able to say that before I could say that.

It is certainly encouraging; you tend to think of business in Bermuda being old and established in the mud, and when you see something like the sale you mentioned happening, you also see that things like the car dealers who seem to be growing most are the upstart ones and not the old established ones.

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