In the first of a series Matthew Taylor talks to public figures who have a passionate stance on the issue of independence. Here Opposition MP Trevor Moniz says why he thinks independence could hurt the economy and stir up racial splits.

Question: What's your objection to independence? Answer: The 1995 referendum was pretty conclusive that the people of Bermuda rejected independence. I take the view they wouldn't be interested at this time. People say the PLP asked their people not to vote but it didn't make a huge difference because all the polls said people were against it in any case.

And we had a validity formula -- the same one used in Scotland for devolution -- which was that in order to get independence over 40 percent of the total electorate had to support it. Even with abstentions we had more than 40 percent of the total electorate rejecting it as well as 75 percent of the participants rejecting it. I see no reason for independence. Bermuda is one of the wealthiest countries in the world because we offer stability which has partly come about because people know there won't be these huge swings in political power because at the end of the day you have the ultimate appeal to the Privy Council and British Government.

I am no great Anglophile. I don't come from an Anglo-Saxon background, I am almost completely Portuguese and what's not Portuguese is largely Irish.

Bermudians have always been great at taking advantage and living in between, which goes all the way to the American War of Independence when we were loyal to the British but supplied gun powder to the Americans. And we have taken great opportunity from on one hand being a dependent territory and the other being self governing. It's been a great formula for us. If it ain't broke don't fix it and it definitely ain't broke. The PLP are wedded to independence, it's a tenant of faith, it's not rational it's purely emotional.

The UBP has always been more rational, more calculating, asking `what's going to make Bermuda money?' Most of the PLP will admit it's not rational, they will say they just want it. They don't care what the results are. I think the majority do care and want to be convinced that any major move is for the benefit of Bermuda as a whole for their quality of life. There are no convincing arguments independence will increase our economic welfare. Why do the PLP want independence? Because it aggrandises their power. I think the PLP are afraid of referendum because it is quite likely the people will reject independence. The PLP is making the vast mistake of saying we are going to do this whether people want it or not. That's a death wish for a political party.

Q: You are taking the cynical view that they only want independence for their own ends. But why 40 years after the winds of change speech is Bermuda, which is one of the wealthiest countries in the world, still tied to the coat tails of Britain which is 4,000 miles away? A: Because that's what made us one of the wealthiest countries. Countries in the Caribbean have a disastrous history. If you look at Bahamas, the political corruption there. I am no fan of Pindling -- he was terrible for the Bahamas, set them back 30 years. Pindling said: "I don't care, I am now in charge, I am doing what I want to do. My people will have all the jobs, we will have all the money.'' That's not good for the people but some people here admire that approach. Go hell for leather and let the chips fall where they may.

Bird was terrible for Antigua, he was corrupt. It's still corrupt. It's ruled by his son. There is shooting down there, Government ministers getting killed, drug-dealing, one son fighting the other son. Bird went into power as a union man and all he did is fill his pockets and his sons' pockets and put them in position and get money from all sorts of international grifters. The people were being screwed around by the British, by the merchants and then it went from one extreme to the other, it's just a mess. Bermuda has managed to steer a middle path. I am not your standard conservative, I am a progressive.

I admit there are a lot of changes needed to be made and people need to be made accountable. But I don't believe independence has anything to offer us in the short-term -- in the next ten years. If anyone can tell me what it has to offer I would be interested to hear. I don't buy this emotional claptrap about Bermuda taking its place on the world stage. You have all these poverty-stricken tiny African and Caribbean countries who have representatives in the UN and New York and Switzerland -- all leeches living off their countries, riding around in limousines. It's a disaster for a small country to imagine it's going to take its place on the world stage, it's total rubbish.

We have no place on the world stage. We are too small.

Q: But surely there are examples where independence has worked? There are a number of thriving small countries around the world.

A: Yes, but none that has thrived as much as we have. I am not saying there are no success stories but we have done better than them. When you look at the places which have done well Jersey, Guernsey, you look at why -- they offer stability. You go down south and you have small parliaments with 14 people all one party, 11 of them are in the cabinet. There's no British Governor, or Foreign Office to overlook them.

Q: But that's an argument about not having small parliaments. You could say Jersey and Guernsey offer the same thing as Bermuda in that they offer an offshore financial base. But you are making the argument that they are linked to Britain. Why not say they are successful because of their economy? A: Yes, but they offer political and economic stability. The Bahamas has made money by going renegade and brought in mafia gambling and casinos and people trying to evade US taxes. We have always played the middle ground -- with a tax treaty with the US we co-operate with Interpol and the US tax people. The PLP hold up the Bahamas as a great example I say no thank you, they are a bunch of gangsters. The only other example close is Caymans but they are also a dependent territory -they have managed to steer a middle ground and have been a bit more wild and woolly than we have. If you can find an independent small island which has produced more economic well-being than we have I would be very interested to hear.

Q: But that would be very difficult because Bermuda has the third highest standard of living in the world anyway so it's almost impossible on any grounds to point to a more successful country. You can't use that as an argument for or against independence.

A: Yes you can. You have to compare us with the small island states. Which ones have done better and which ones have done worse. If you look at the ones which have done the best -- Cayman, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda -- what do they all have in common? They are all linked to a larger entity which gives them political and economic stability.

Q: You have clearly stated you have no emotional ties to Britain, it's practical. If you could be convinced there would be political stability, there wouldn't be a one-party state through a small parliament would you then be interested in independence? A: I am not suggesting the time might not come, but it is not now. We have gone through our first period of change with the election of the PLP which is very unsettling. We haven't arrived at the America situation where the Republicans and Democrats are relatively close together. It's unsettling when you have two parties that are radically different.

Q: But the two parties agree on having a capitalist economy with no income tax. There has been no stampede from international business. Why do you see this great divide between the parties? A: You have these big issues -- long-term residents and constitutional change.

It's causing concern. And there have been incidences of Government asking business for money which they were unwilling to give -- for example the proposed tourism building on Pitt's Bay Road. Constitutional changes segues into independence -- as you reduce the size of parliament you are likely to move more to a one party state, which in one sense we have just got out of.

Independence to me is just neither here nor there. Let's say we go to independence what do I get out of it for example? What does anyone get out of it? Q: Well people might get annoyed about all the trappings of British rule -- the Governor in his limo, the Queen's parade, all about something they can't relate to. It reminds them of an oppressive past. Can you not see that people want to get out of that and move on? A: I absolutely agree with that -- I have no interest in the trappings of colonial power and imperialism. Quite frankly in some respects growing up I found it to be quite distasteful but you have to look beyond the cosmetic. Yes there are a lot of bad things in our society -- things that can be reformed, but I believe in progressive reform. I don't believe in just jumping to independence. The PLP are nationalistic, they don't believe in the trappings of British imperialism. They believe in the trappings of nationalistic fervour. They want to have a national stadium and a national this and a national that. All you are going to do is to replace British claptrap with a bunch of nationalistic claptrap. You go to some African countries and you see these huge buildings. I would prefer to get rid of claptrap altogether and have a free and just democratic society. That's what I want, where nobody has such a degree of power they don't feel accountable to the public.

Q: One point mentioned by the pro-independence lobby is Bermuda's confused cultural identity -- with one foot in America, one in Britain, one in the Caribbean and one in the Azores. They say independence would bring the country together.

A: Bermuda clearly has a cultural diversity and that's absolutely right. You are not going to get around the cultural diversity and I don't see why you should. You should recognise people's differences. My family were the first Portuguese family at Saltus and while I was there the school began to integrate with blacks. Someone said to me you never suffered prejudice there.

I said, yes I did -- everyday somebody made some sort of comment about the fact that you are a little bit different from everybody else. I didn't suffer any terrible miscarriages of justice but there was always the feeling that you were the odd man out, that somehow socially you were not as good as the others. Bermuda had a very rigid hierarchical class structure with the blacks and the Portuguese at the bottom of that structure. That's why it was easier for me to make friends with non-Bermudians because they didn't come in with these closed minds. One of my closest friends was an American guy -- he would invite me over to his house. The other people wouldn't do that.

Yes, we have to break down barriers but independence is not going to break down barriers. In fact what some of the radicals would like to do is to do what the Bahamas did and force people to leave. They don't want to invite you to come into their cultural diversity, they want to get rid of you. You have a situation where people hate white people. I spoke at one of these long-term residents meetings and one guy said to me "I remember when you came to Bermuda and you couldn't speak English.'' Well my family have been in Bermuda for 150 years -- I was born here and so were both my parents and three of my four grandparents. Some of these black people are so prejudiced against white and Portuguese that they make up things, they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

People look at my family and say `oh you're Portuguese' and I say `what are you' and they say "I am Bermudian and my family has been here for 50 years''.

They assume because they are from the dominant Anglo-saxon culture they assimilate more quickly because you stand out as an ethnic although you have been there a long, long time.'' Trevor Moniz: "It's a disaster for a small country to imagine it's going to take it's place on the world stage, its total rubbish. We have no place on the world stage. We are too small.''