Environment Minister Arthur Hodgson has a fine balancing act. Finding the common ground between the needs of the markets, the community and ecology is what Mr. Hodgson is after. He covers this and other topics with reporter Matthew Taylor.

Question: A recent document on marine and fishing had a line which said the population increase came "not only by a natural increase but as the result of an immigration policy that some would describe as simply reckless.'' Is this your view? Answer: "I don't know if I would use the word `reckless' but when you look at population figures, you see Bermuda was governed by people whose primary concern was the bottom line. One must ask, did we have to import so many people to carry out that development?'' Q: Do you regret that importation of people? A: "It's my personal view that we imported more than we needed to have done.

The more people you have the more waste you have, you use more resources, you change the culture of the community you are living in, you put pressure on the streets, you create the drug problem.'' Q: Are you blaming foreigners for the drugs problem? A: If my wife and I are so busy working that we neglect our children, they are going to get alienated.

"They lose a sense of belonging to family and they are off on their own and looking for ways to find comfort. If you overload your system you get all sorts of problems of alienation -- people play hookey from school, they sit on the wall, they do all kinds of antisocial things.

"The 1991 census showed there were 42,634 Bermudian-born people here and 15,823 foreign-born people -- here that's well over a third.

"In society in order to maintain a sense of community and a sense of self-identity you can't withstand pressure from the outside without them taking you over.

"We talk like Americans because of tourists and visitors from America.'' Q: Are you really saying foreigners are taking the country over? A: "If you have five people in the family and three people come to dinner every night you would say they are taking you over. It prevents a particular sense of family.'' Q: Why does the presence of foreigners prevent Bermudians from developing a sense of community? You go to your church and meet with your friends -- in what way are you prevented from getting that sense of community going? A: "For most people it revolves around work. You spend 30 percent of your time sleeping, 30 percent on recreation and the rest on work.

"But I don't know if we have any Bermudians running hotels. Work life is governed by forces alien to our culture.

"The problem still exists -- of the 1,700 new jobs mentioned in the Budget speech, around 700 went to non-Bermudians.'' Q: Sir John Swan said recently that Bermuda had prospered since 1940 by concentrating on tourism and international business. How would that be possible without foreigners? A: "First of all his view of history is jaundiced -- that's why his policies were rejected. If you don't know where you come from you won't know where you are going. A sense of history is important.

"It's about sustainable development -- some people think this means you simply keep going on. We can't overpopulate the Island but there is also recognition in Bermuda that we need tourists.

"The process of sustainable development is about balancing economic development, community development and ecological development.

"Tourism and international business have done us well. I don't think anyone suggests we should get out of those businesses. However the question arises in order to get this balance do we just keep developing?'' "In 1940 there was a greater sense of family.

"I lived in Guyana and saw the growth of Indian businesses -- although they came over later than the blacks, they were outstripping the blacks. You would see mother cooking and dad in the back peeping through the curtains and overseeing it all.'' Q: But what does the breakdown of the Bermudian family unit have to do with foreigners living here? A: "It is a multifaceted problem. Divorce and children born out of wedlock is a problem. We have to fight these problems.

"Take the racial conflict in Bermuda. Around 75 percent of the natural population is black and 25 percent is white.

"Traditionally the PLP get 80 percent of the black vote and less than five percent of the white vote. The 1998 election win should have happened years before that, but because of immigration policies the mix is closer to 50/50.'' Q: Why do you use the term racial conflict you're really talking about racial demographics? A: "You can call it demographics or polarisation or tensions. Historically cultural experiences differ from white people, there are different political allegiances.

"It's difficult to resolve conflicts in the family. They can't get solved.

They fester.'' Q: You've got a system where everyone who wants one can get a job and a quarter to a half of Bermudians are doing second jobs -- surely 99 percent of countries around the world would envy the situation this country is in? A: "And they would be wrong. I disagree that everybody has a job -- if people are alienated they don't want to participate. When I was in Family and Magistrates' Court you realised how many people don't work regularly -- they hustle, other people are on drugs or in prison.

"We probably have one of the highest prison populations (percentage) in the world. We don't have full employment -- not because the jobs don't exist but because we have said to a group of people `you don't belong here'. People don't feel part of Bermuda -- the hangers on, the beggars and the drug users.'' Q: But who has said that? It's almost like you are blaming the foreigner.

A: "No, this is a mistake and the debate should not take place there. All of these things are done incrementally from bad policies.

"I don't want to appear anti-foreigner so I don't address the population issue. I don't want to be anti-business so I don't address the overloading issue, I don't want to be considered a green crazy so I don't address the ecological issues. It's nothing personal -- it's about balance. If you overload any system, it breaks down.

"What is wrong with our society that people have to work overtime? People laboured for years to get an eight-hour work day and this now doesn't provide enough for them to live on.'' "People have two jobs -- is that good? The solution is we spend time with our families -- we don't treat weekends as another day of work. We have problems because we don't provide overtime payments.'' Q: Why isn't a minimum wage part of the PLP platform? A: "That answer is complex. You are asking for an historical analysis.'' Q: Not really, no.

A: "It's really never been discussed. I don't believe Bermudians or any other nationality wants to work three jobs because they love work. They don't make enough to pay for housing. I was talking to a cleaner recently making $400 a week for a 40-hour week, it's difficult to get by on that.'' Q: If minimum wage was in place, might not some of the problems of doing two jobs be solved? A: "It might. I can only refer you to countries where the debate has taken place. I don't know if the debate has taken place here.'' Q: Will some of your views upset expats? A: I don't think they will be upset if they are put in the proper context.

Arthur Hodgson: The Environment Minister said former Premier, Sir John Swan's view of history "is jaundiced -- that's why his policies were rejected.'' IMMIGRATION IMM